How America Lost the Moral Argument
72The rich white guy saves the day again.
The hero of the Hollywood movie jumps onto his horse, motor bike or woman and rides into the sunset. Another Johnny Foreigner defeated, another dastardly terrorist plan foiled.
We breathe a sigh of relief and satisfaction at the explosions and body count, and return to our sad little lives wishing that we could be Americans too.
We buy the product, lust after a Harley-Davidson, holiday in Florida and wear Nike trainers, if we can afford them.
And we buy the American dream. The one that says opportunity for all - equality, democracy, freedom. The Stars and Stripes is the symbol of all that other countries, less successful and left behind in the race, aspire to.
Young and Stupid
When I was younger I was politically motivated for a while.
I read some things that said the Dream was not perfect.
There was Vietnam sure and Watergate, but there were a hundred other similar games played out in defenceless countries across the world.
Tales of invasion, deceit, atrocity and torture – propping up dictators while toppling democracies.
I read these things and filed them away, and lost interest. For the most part the Dream had me hooked. I wanted to be American. I wanted to ride my Harley down Route 66, visit all those wonderful places, experience real freedom.
A constant diet of American television and films reinforced this feeling – the white hero always winning against the odds and the nasty foreigners.
Coupled with a healthy interest in narcotics and a desire to have fun, I let my negative thoughts disappear.
After all, we were the good guys, right?
9/11
When 9/11 happened I was shocked. Of course I was. I work in an office too. Those poor innocent people killed for no reason. They didn’t deserve it, no one deserves that.
Who would do such a thing? Why would they do it?
Someone must really hate the Americans I guessed, and I kind of left it at that.
At that point in time I felt with the American people. The world was with them – supportive, concerned – we were aghast at the atrocity visited for no reason.
The events that followed completely destroyed my faith in the American dream.
Bin Laden
The bad guy was fairly quickly identified.
What was not so readily available through the normal media, the rant press, was that Bin Laden had been used as a CIA trained proxy warrior in the Afghanistan war.
At that point the soon to be Taliban had been our friends and the Russians the enemy.
That was the remnants of the Cold War. The endless war designed to keep the population in fear while their political masters played games. Ring any bells? Exactly the same as the War on Terror.
A simple trawl through the internet muddied the waters a little. This Saudi born terrorist or rather, freedom fighter when he fought the Russians, was one of ours.
But the Americans didn’t go after the Saudis.
The UN
Both Britain and the US used the UN as a fig leaf for their war against Iraq. The intention was not to build a Coalition of the Willing so much as to get cover for their actions in the name of international law.
It had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 but in the heat of the moment it made this colonial venture possible.
Yet still I believed in our governments. Still I thought that they must be doing it for the right reasons, that no one starts a war for anything other than good.
After all, we’re the good guys right?
Colin Powell was a good guy. He stood in front of the UN and lied through his teeth about weapons of mass destruction, using pictures of lorries and baby food factories. They knew he was lying, we knew, and he knew we knew.
But the UN is built on politics, not principles. This shabby enterprise crumbled before my eyes. No longer does it mean anything more than self interested parties looking after their own. Maybe it never did.
Iraq
A civilised place of great history ruled by a tyrant.
Time for some Shock and Awe.
The Crusaders returning with high moral principle, bringing democracy from forty thousand feet.
We were going to save Iraq by bombing it back to the Stone Age, according to at least one American general.
This was all starting to get a bit puzzling to ex political me. Why does anyone want war? Why does anyone want to drop bombs on men, women and children – exactly the same sort of people who would have been sat in those offices on 9/11.
Was it revenge? But Bin Laden had never been welcome in Iraq, nor Al Quaida. Were the Americans and British just stupid, or was there a master plan?
But still I clung to a small bit of belief that we were the good guys. There MUST be some point to this barbaric madness.
“We don’t count civilian casualties” said another army person.
You don’t count them? You don’t bother counting the families you destroy?
It’s around this time that I started to remember reading about America many years before and puzzling over the savagery and duplicitous behaviour. How life was maybe not so simple as a Die Hard film.
Abu Ghraib
One bad apple?
Half a dozen?
The most iconic image for many years of a prisoner of war, hooded, dressed in a sack and standing on a box.
The new picture to place alongside the heroic American soldiers raising the flag at Iwo Jima.
Are you counting anything now? Are you counting each new outrage perpetuated in the name of freedom and democracy?
Bad things happen in war. When the war ends the losing side are prosecuted for it in sham war crimes trials. The winning side makes great claims for their heroism and victory, while the loser’s fate is decided with a bullet or a hanging.
What mileage would the American politicians have got from those Abu Ghraib pictures, had it been Bin Laden taking them? What great speeches would Bush or Obama have made? How sure we would have been that we were doing the Right Thing.
Around this time I decided to leave the Good Side. The white heroes of the Western world. I didn’t want a Harley anymore, or a pair of Nike trainers. Who wants to be a part of a system that behaves like that?
But, just when you think things can’t get any worse…
Guantanamo and Enemy Combatants
A surety of war has always been the Geneva Convention. This says that despite there’s a war and we hate each other, we will treat the enemy soldiers with an element of dignity and respect.
These guys are soldiers too, same as our soldiers. We’re just fighting for different things.
America decided that this no longer applied.
Instead of soldiers, anyone fighting against America could be deemed Enemy Combatants and therefore not eligible for reasonable treatment.
Torture was allowed, although we haven’t got the guts to call it torture. Other bad guys torture, we do stress positions, water boarding and, and, and.
Detention without trial, legal representation or visits from families was now permissible.
Did America not understand what this appalling decision meant?
Did they not think that pictures of orange suited, blindfolded, humiliated prisoners in cages would be a shock to most reasonable people?
Prisoners who are not guilty of anything because - according to every law across the world, including places so much less advanced than the great democracy of America - they have not had a trial.
Obama
Two days after being sworn in he signed a pledge to close Guantanamo.
Today I read that it will remain open permanently and a new law will make it legal to detain people without trial for ever.
Well done America.
The moral high ground has been completely swept away.
America
I have deliberately referred to America in this piece. Even though most Americans are perfectly reasonable, rational, nice people. They don’t go round torturing people or killing and maiming children.
Unfortunately, their government and military does.
It is crystal clear now that it makes no difference if the government is left or right wing. They are both the same.
To borrow from an earlier quote.
“Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask them what the fuck they think they are playing at. Ask them why your taxes are spent on playing games across the world in order to support a military whose cover of decency and honor ended when they stopped counting civilian casualties. Ask your political representative if they will undergo water boarding, or spend a couple of weeks in Guantanamo.
And ask them how the hell did America, your America, lose the moral argument”.
.
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I'm not sure about "most Americans are perfectly reasonable, rational, nice people".
I think most Americans are under educated, superstitious, illogical, greedy and self-centered.
Yeah, I know, I've been spending too much time in the Political and Religious forums - the cretins depress me and poison my view of the world. That's true and I really, really need to stay away.
But really: how could we do all that you have talked about here and be "reasonable, rational, nice people"? If we are all that, you at least need to add "clueless" and "ignorant".
Often people say to me the Americans are all those things you just said. So it's a widely held view. But I look at those I talk with, such as yourself, who aren't.
Unfortunately the few that have any knowledge or interest in politics are vastly outweighed by those who don't. That's why they, the government, military, business - get away with it.
Now I do know, that most of you didn't vote for Abu Ghraib.
Pcunix makes some good points too.
Yes, he always makes good points. We should all feel responsible for our governments actions. The problem is - how do you do anything about it?
Ask the Native Americans or African slave descendants what "moral ground" we hold!
We only care now, because the horrific treatment is affecting "us"...more of the mainstream is being subject to the elite control that many have always been under.
More and more, Rev Wright's words rings to true.
Our chickens are indeed coming home to roost.
We're ok with torture, as long as it's Arabs. Ok with detention without a trial as long as it' "war-time" combatants. Ok with "destroying his mind, and giving him a new one" as long as it's Jose Padilla.
Ok with thinking we have the right to tell people what to do with their bodies long as it's women.
Ok with everything as long as we are free to make as much money as possible in one lifetime, hell-outta-my-way.
God Bless, and don't forget to put the money in the plate.
Last time of ideals was Kennedy. When "they" killed him, his bro and MLK....the possible dream ended, and the real nightmare began. IMO
Well. Mark, you ruined my day :-)
I woke up determined to have a more charitable attitude. I vowed that I would seek out the reasonable, build bridges where there is slight disagreement and that I would not let my mind be poisoned by the ugliness. I had actually told myself that most people do not hold the disgusting opinions I run into in our Forums.
Ayup, I was ready to be cheerful and optimistic. Boy, did THAT evaporate quickly!
Thanks for giving me my hub for today. I was going to write an amusing bit of fluff, but all of that got shriveled up and it may take weeks to put me back in the mood again..
Sigh..
I normally do not comment on public forums about these types of things, but a new year and perhaps it is time.
I want to educate those not old enough to remember
In the 1950's and 1960's our government went to South America and taught countries like Brazil and Argentina how to murder and torture their citizens, look up death squads
Bin Laden, we financed him in the war against Russia, then abandoned him after the Russians left.
Iran, we made the fifth largest Military might in the world under a dictator, The Shah, then let him fall to extremists, who hated us partly because we supported his horrible abuse of his own people
OPEC exists because our government was instrumental in getting it formed so Oil prices could be raised so Iran could buy our weapons, then see above
And I might remind everyone we are the only country that ever used an atomic bomb on living people.
Throughout our history we espouse one set of values while behind the scenes doing and committing terrible acts.
Now I would rather live here than anywhere else, but I have no false pretense, we were created on blood and greed, grew on blood and greed and will survive as a nation on blood and greed.
Here is some food for thought for those who wish it. The cold war was in large part fought because we publicly were opposed to the oppression of communist form of government. The key issues were, citizens rights or lack thereof. The ability of the government to seize property, detain citizens without due process, no privacy (wire taps, listening in on personal life), no voice in government, all things now that this country is allowed to do and is doing. Just food for thought.
Power corrupts and absolute power well you know and being the only "Super Power" has the risk of corrupting.
I wish I knew the answer to your question, Mark. I think there are a number of reasons people think and behave on these issues the way they do, and that there is no single solution. I'm afraid I think most of those reasons are related to what Pcunix said.
I agree, that we are the government. That's the way it was set up and is supposed to work, but a lot of people distance themselves from that premise. A lot of people seem to both think and talk as if the government were some foreign enemy entity. It may be becoming just that because; people are so apathetic and uninformed.
If a person thinks they can't, then they're probably right, mainly because they've given up before they even start. Most people think they cannot do anything to change things. These same people ridicule people who are trying by the only means they can think of -- the Occupy movement for example, to change things.
Pcunix is correct in that so many people are clueless about politics, so greedy and selfish, and I think he left out gullible. They are gullible as a result of being clueless.
You really can't reason with these people. It's like trying to explain to a parrot why it should stop shouting cuss words to everyone who walks through the door. The parrot's eyes glaze over as though you had just presented it with a complete copy of the U.S. Tax Code, and as a response it shouts the same string of cuss words, because it neither listened to, considered, nor understood, anything you said.
You will be unlikely to ever persuade the parrot to stop repeating the cuss words that have been programmed into it through much repetition. It only repeats what it hears with no understanding of the words themselves.
The parrot only cares about it's own wants and needs. Yours and everyone else’s are irrelevant. Out of ignorance, it will continue to shout the same cuss words even if it means being banished to unpleasant surroundings, because it truly doesn’t understand that it is acting against it’s own best interests by shouting cuss words.
A lot of people behave the same way. Parroting what they hear with no real understanding, and believing what the most charming snake oil salesmen tell them. They truly do not understand they are not acting in their own best interests. By putting these snake oil salesmen in office. Selfishness often fails to serve the owner of that trait just as it serves no one else, especially when combined with a lack of understanding.
lovemychris - I'm hearing you.
Pcunix - sorry about your day. I read about the perpetual open Guantanamo in the paper and it just got me riled.
seo guru - we could write millions of words on this but the short bits are a useful memory aide.
au fait - that is a perfect parrot analogy.
@au fait
I'd like to engrave your comment on brass plates attached to big rocks and plank them down in the middle of every town and city in America.
I'm going out for a walk. This anger is not good for me.
lovemychris, ask the native Americans or slaves what moral high ground we hold? hahaha, We gave the "supposed NATIVES" tax free land! I say supposed because they were nomadic in nature and traveled from Mexico to Canada, they just happened to be here when we put up borders! Some liberal felt sorry for the heathenistic murderers! Read history they were animals covered in lice! They now build casinos where others can't and get wealthy! The rest cash government checks each month and live as drunks! Slaves? we freed them! Gave them the same opportunities as anyone else! Not one of them ever wanted to go back to starvation in Africa! You failed to mention we had slaves around the world for 2 thousand years!......it wasn't just an American thing!
Hello American Romance. I'll just say that if you represent America, the America that still wants or needs some friends around the world, you probably need to tone it down a notch.
The UK had slaves and colonies. It was disgusting and wrong. We have yet to fully come to terms with the harm we did.
Mark, have you truly never had a vist from AR before?
You have missed so much. His words will infect your dreams - or, more accurately, your nightmares.
I haven't had the pleasure before but you do tend to bump into them on the internet quite a lot. I used to try to engage and persuade, but there is no point. The chances are quite high that he or she doesn't believe what they are typing anyway.
Oh, I think they do. I used to play poker with someone just like AR. He's one of the reasons I quit, in fact: I couldn't maintain a pretense of civility much longer. Interestingly, he spoke of American Indians using almost exactly the same words AR used here.
Maybe they get emailed instructions..
Oh dear. Well, I have been out of the loop of ignorance and racism for too long. Come to think of it, occasionally casual people I engage with will quite often confide that it's all the fault of the ------. Fill in the blanks with your target of choice.
To me however the "lice" comment is enough to throw a mental switch which prevents the rest of the words having any meaning.
"Fill in the blanks with your target of choice."
Dirty Filthy Hippies is making a resurgence.
While the World Police bludgeon war Vets.
Oh, but you see, the filthy swine deserve it. Only the Koch Bros filthy polluting gets a pass.
another great hub Mark and right on target.
american romance...i live on the pine ridge indian reservation and i am a member of the lakota tribe here. we have a casino, yet we are still one of the poorest reservations in america. i think you are the one who needs to read history...the real history. my people were rounded up and FORCED to live on reservations. their religion stripped from them, their way of life stripped from them, forced to live off of rotten meat and flour that nearly killed them because no one told them how to use it so they tried to eat it by the handfuls like it is possible to do with cornmeal. today, the younger generation doesnt even know its own history or culture and they still feel the shame of "being lakota". my fathers grandparents (not lakota) taught him to despise his own people and culture. the tax free land you comfort yourself with is so polluted that the lakes, streams, and rivers and all the life in them, is contaminated and unfit to eat...because the government used parts of it to practice bombing runs. many families including my own grandfather were forced to leave their homes and live elsewhere on the reservation so the government could use their land to bomb.
you posess a callous disregard for things you have no knowledge about.
Mark, i am sorry for ranting on your hub...but i had to say something.
Ok I can't resist. So the same people who AR refers to are the same people who lived off the land, took only what they needed, left the earth the same way they found it. Oh and let's not forget the pyramids the Incas and the Mayans built and the cities the Hopey (may not be spelled correctly) built, the fact they built cities in the middle of lakes, were performing brain surgery before we were here. I think the Romans thought the Christians were savages too? Before you spout off nonsense get the facts correct.
timcgaa70 - please don't apologise. Your comment moved me. Here I am pontificating about matters which largely have no effect on me (thank God), and yet you have a closer and more real story. You are most welcome.
Ah, we all suffer from short term memory problems.
Look at WWII - we had no problems or objections with killing millions of "citizens".
Talk to the Native American Indian about our "morals" as a country. (Slavery is another subject all together, but even after the slaves were "freed" how long did it take to get them all their rights as a human being?)
America has neve been, nor ever will be, a "moral" country.
Most Americans believe what the government dishes out to them in the mind numbing schools that we have. Always remember, history is written by the winners, not the losers, of the war. (Or slave owners, or land grabbers, etc)
Where did you ever read that America was ruled by "moral" principles?
What would be best for the American people is to be told what our government actually does.
Wonder why the Arabs hate us so much?
Take the time to visit an Arab country like Saudi Arabia, that's a complete dictatorship supported by the US Government.
The people are not the government. That is a fairy tale, always has been.
The government is filled with gargantuan egos, from people who want power and money. That is the only reason they run for office and take their positions of power.
The founders of the country warned us against a central government. We disregarded their warnings.
To think we have fallen into a gutter of "lack of morals" is to think that at one time our government had some.
Cheers,
John D. Wilson
Great hub. Re: ignorance and prejudice… I have a close friend who is Jewish and is married to man half Navajo and half Russian man. She says she hears the same people disparage Jews in one circle, Indians in another, Catholics in the next, Black Americans in white circles and liberals in every circle. It’s just stupidity and the mindless influence of right-wing radio.
claptona. That's a fair point re us having had morals at some point. What on earth was I thinking? Truth is... I wasn't thinking. I had other things to do. I just thought we would only go to war for the 'right' reasons.
Silly I know.
Hi Mark,
Surprise, surprise, surprise! Good Ol' Gomer Pyle!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6_1Pw1xm9U
Cheers,
John
Mark, it's really difficult being THE superpower of the world. What do you do, on one hand use whatever means possible to stop the people of the world from carrying out their thousands of annihilation plans against you, or on the other hand, just blast them off the face of the earth. We are still here aren't we? Sometimes you have to choose the lesser of two evils. As an American citizen, I don't like it that my taxes are used to police the world, but I'd hate to be in a world where a non-democratic power would take our place. We have the freedom to change our leaders when they do not live up to our expectations. And yes, the checks and balances of our system prohibit extreme moves in any one direction. Many of the reasons for our actions are hidden from public knowledge. I have a friend who tells me that if we really knew just how dangeous our world was, we would not be able to function in our every day lives. Don't fall for the anti-american propaganda.
Most of the propaganda in my article comes out of the mouths of your own political leaders and generals. "Bomb them back to the Stone Age". "We don't count civilian casualties".
The announcement that America is going to legalise unlimited detention without trial may be seen as propaganda, but it is your President who signed this. I am not spinning or being spun to.
A 200 year old country thinks it can dispense with normal judicial process.
Iraq has a cultural history of 10,000 years.
Not propaganda. 100,000 dead civilians.
I ask any sane person what on earth gave America the right to invade Iraq and kill 100,000 CIVILIANS?
Remember. There was NO threat. There never was any threat. Not propaganda - all on record.
My reason for this article is just a small mention to Americans of how the outside world, even their allies, perceive them.
If we were to count up the dead and maimed children across the world in the last ten years who do you think has done the most damage?
And how much propaganda do you need to believe that is a price worth paying?
Sorry, bit garbled, not much time.
But me? A victim of anti American propaganda? I don't think so. I just read the news, and think about what it says.
Well we can agree to disagree. My point is taken in your last line.
Very briefly, Mark, because I am emotionally exhausted by reading your brilliant hub and also the comments.
I have seldom given an AWESOME but this deserves it. beautifully written and counter-commented. I was sad to read a couple of the comments, especially those of AR. I find it hard to believe that people of that ilk are still living in this world and spouting such reactionary and filthy mouthed, uninformed bile.
I am horrified to learn that Guantanamo and the laws that it survives on have now been extended permanently.
Thank you for putting your arguments so clearly and well. And than you, all those who commented with extra information and with compassion.
Bravo Mark! I have found that non-Americans know so much more about what is going on in America than most America. America is no longer great because America is no longer good!
Mark, we share the same views, only you've been able to express them in a short, cut-to-the-chase manner, whereas my Hub runs way, (way), longer, as you know...
Well done.
I'm very pleased to see the rational and intelligent comments you've drawn from some Americans. It's refreshing to read comments that show not everyone in the US is as ready to believe, ready to be deceived.
And then we have American Romance, the incoherent Texan who, in one rambling spew of bile, portrays the frame of mind that enables America's leaders to murder, maim, lie, cheat and trample their way through the rest of the world.
I'm not surprised he turned up, you might remember, his obscenity-laden diatribe (threatening physical violence) against a hub Diogenes wrote, was the subject of my article questioning why HP would increase a guy's comment level, when he clearly lacks the smarts to challenge a point of view other than his own tiny-minded one, and persists in proving it with aggressive, foul-mouthed and frankly embarrassing, comments.
If you're reading, AR, pop over to my place and see how little respect there is amongst people who can actually form cogent thoughts, for your kind of 'comment'.
While you're there, maybe you'd like to challenge yourself to read the truth about the Indian Wars, in reality state sponsored terrorism, that allowed America to become polulated by your forbears, people too dumb to understand what they were destroying, and too arrogant to care. In 200 years, nothing has changed for one-eyed supremacists like yourself, so you probably won't like the facts about the lies and deceit that allowed the obscenity of Iraq to happen either. As I said upfront, my article is longer than this one of Mark Ewbie's, but there aren't too many big words, so I think you'll be able to keep up. Maybe just read s-l-o-w-l-y. I look forward to your comments on both hubs.
I'm sorry to have intruded Mark. I sometimes wish there was a 'pin' option on HP, so we could just deflate the BS that invades the site from the likes of American Romance. There's enough crap on the web already.
"“Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause… for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country.” - George Washington, charge to the Northern Expeditionary Force, Sept. 14, 1775
I found that one of our two parties endorsed the use of waterboarding, which is torture under every definition of the word by the entire world. However the Bush Admin. simply called it something else; "Enhanced Interrogation Techniques". Since there is no law referencing such a thing, it was therefore not illegal according to their logic. I assume now that I can rob a bank, and when the cops come for me I can simply make the claim that I was employing "Enhanced Appropriation of Funds" from the bank. I'd be willing to bet that there isn't a law against such a thing.
It also strikes me as revealing that a party that claims that it's conservative principles ARE American principles, is running in direct conflict with the principles set forth by the man considered the Father of our Country himself who knew a bit about American Principles. If a conservative thinks that his "principles" are consistent with American principles how can he justify supporting the torturing of prisoners when Washington stated clearly what his position on that would be. Either conservatives don't hold American principles, OR....they are simply hypocrites on this subject like they are on so many others. They NEVER compromise their principles...except when they do.
Waterboarding is in fact, a torture method. We use it on our own Special Forces people when they go through SERE training. Why would we torture our own people?? Because if they are caught they need to be prepared for what they will be facing. They undergo this training voluntarily, with full knowledge that it's necessary if they are to be fully prepared for the worst kind of treatment. SERE school is not to be confused with Charm School. We would be short changing these Special Forces and SEAL's if we pulled our punches. And any of these troops will tell you that it is in fact...Torture. I know this from first hand information by a Green Beret who went through it. By going through it, they know they can handle the most demanding situations. This is Hardball in every sense.
For our government to employ this technique on prisoners, is in complete opposition to the American values that were set out by George Washington himself. To even have a debate over whether we would use torture on anybody in my view is insane. We've turned ourselves into the very thing we condemn in others. The argument that they do it, so that makes it ok for us, is an absurd Tu Quoque argument that is a logical fallacy. Most of us learned as children that two wrongs don't make a right.
" Slaves? we freed them!"
Right. After we had enslaved them first. How benevolent of us. Then after freeing them, we permitted Jim Crow and segregation to keep them as second class citizens.
"Gave them the same opportunities as anyone else!"
No we didn't. As I pointed out...Jim Crow. Poll Taxes. Segregation. It took another hundred years and a Civil Rights Act and Voting Rights Act of congress to begin to process of equal opportunities. You have a short memory or a huge gap in your history education.
"Not one of them ever wanted to go back to starvation in Africa! You failed to mention we had slaves around the world for 2 thousand years!......it wasn't just an American thing!"
Another tu quoque justification. The tu quoque fallacy is committed when it is assumed that because someone else has done a thing there is nothing wrong with doing it. This fallacy is classically committed by children who, when told off, respond with “So and so did it too”, with the implied conclusion that there is nothing wrong with doing whatever it is that they have done. This is a fallacy because it could be that both children are in the wrong, and because, as we were all taught, two wrongs don’t make a right.
Example
(1) The Romans kept slaves.
Therefore:
(2) We can keep slaves too.
Conservatives are supreme justificationists. Your commentary proves that. The quickest way to healing wounds is to admit that they exist and who is responsible for them. Trying to justify barbaric behavior never achieves anything worthwhile. In fact, it reveals your own bigotry and prejudices.
Thank you all guys, for intelligent well thought out comments. It is good to know in a world of madness that you are not alone.
Bravo, Mark ... a cogent and powerful hub. Respect is due. And to all commenters (except for AR of course who embodies everything that is worst about the US) thank you for your enlightening and erudite comments ... I see I have quite a few new people to follow now.
I especially respect those Americans who have commented so honestly without the typical American knee jerk reaction of righteous self-absolution. They prove that the old joke about wars happening only to teach Americans about geography is a gross injustice.
All countries have some shameful incidents in their history ... but only the truly great can hold up their hands and admit they were wrong.
Just came across this:
"Although he initially had threatened to veto the bill, he later agreed to changes that were negotiated.
“Ultimately, I decided to sign this bill not only because of the critically important services it provides for our forces and their families and the national security programs it authorizes, but also because the Congress revised provisions that otherwise would have jeopardized the safety, security, and liberty of the American people,” he said.
--Pres Obama
****
Now, here's my tin-foil thinking; I already believe the world is made up of factions of high-powered criminals all vying for power. And I believe al-queda is a made up organization, and a dangerous one. Suppose the Obama faction is going after al-queda, who are in reality, rogue agents of the CIA and Mossad?
That would be juss fine with me. :)
Remember, back in Cleopatra's time, they all had food testers (as did Saddam Hussein!), who tested food before the Kings and Queens put their lips to it.
WE have NO idea what goes on in our midst!
Of all the comments above, the one that angers me the most is the one that ends with "We can agree to disagree".
This is just cold indifference, a callous and calculated cruelty that dismisses atrocity as though it were nothing worth discussing. It leaves me slack jawed, astounded at the arrogance that spawned it.
Read this yesterday: "When the gvt of the U.S.S.R collapsed, what took over? The Mafia"
Well, I don't want to defend someone with a different view point to mine of course, but...
I read "agree to disagree" as being a way of saying "We don't agree on this. We never will agree on this and arguing further would be pointless".
Now I equally understand your anger Pcunix, and I am obviously just a straw blown by the wind - but I appreciate people come with different views and different levels of engagement.
We're all different basically. And that's why we are all so beautiful. I'll go and write a Haiku about it.
My anger of yesterday is lessened by the time passing. I am not going to spend my life worrying about Obama and his twisting of the law because there is nothing I can do about it and because selfishly, I just want to be happy.
I will write the occasional angry piece when something gets to me, but mostly I try to ignore their games.
Believe me, if I thought I could make a scrap of difference, I would try harder. Ultimately, like everyone (most people?) in the world, my immediate concern is me and my family, and the pursuit of our version of our Dream.
No! Not another Haiku, Mark .... pleeeeeze!
And for everything else there is Avaaz.com ... stand up and be counted. It may be armchair activism but at least it is trying to right wrongs.
(I stand by awaiting being shot down in flames for that).
Hey if you want to stop the Haiku then take it up with Avaaz. Only joking.
I have high hopes for the internet, be it amateur reporting, Wikileaks, or other forms of activism. And yes Angie, it probably all helps.
The threat of instant worldwide exposure has probably stayed the hand of the occasional baton wielding thug.
By the way - it's http://avaaz.org, not .com.
What started as an intelligent point of view has quickly deteriorated into a USA bash fest. Now I do not condone many actions, and certainly would have done them differently if I were making the decisions. But all sited here could be said of every nation going back to the beginning of time. In ancient times an invading nation would kill every man and boy of a city or state they conquered, or enslave them. All the way back to the very first civilization. So we can find flaw in all of them. Guys at least here we are not at high risk to sitting at a restaurant and having someone walk in and detonate a bomb attached to them. Here we don't commit genocide against minorities in the political spectrum, here we get the chance to elect who leads and if we don't like them we vote them out. All great powers throughout history have perpetuated atrocities, it is how they became great powers. There are good and evil people everywhere.
You can go back from Britain, to Napoleon, from Stalin to Mao, from Romans to Greeks, from Persian to Israel, from
Mongolia to Japan. It is the nature of mankind to commit such acts and has been for thousands of years. Yet in what country today would you enjoy the freedoms today to write these opinions and fear no reprisal. Is it perfect, no, is it flawed yes, was it built on blood and greed yes, were there atrocities and injustices committed, yes. But name me one place where these things do not happen. And the person that stated Al Queda is made up, please, they are sponsoring death and destruction all over the world, as are many groups who want the power. Stalin killed 40 million of his own citizens, Mao more, Vietnam, Cambodia, Hitler all in modern times. And now these countries all flourish in todays world.
Given a choice I still prefer to live here as opposed to many other places on this earth. Those of you posting who don't perhaps you could share your countries past with the group. I am sure it is filled with nothing but love and peace.
"Yet in what country today would you enjoy the freedoms today to write these opinions and fear no reprisal."
seo guru, right there in your question is the nub of the problem. This absurd mantra that only America allows true freedom of expression. Surely you don't believe that? I expect it from someone like AR, who in comments I've read elsewhere makes the other equally fatuous but oft repeated claim that "America is the greatest country in the world". How does he know? Compared to where? Ever lived anywhere else? Ever even been anywhere else? Read about what's going on in other countries? Watched any news from sources other than American media?
To answer your question would be to give it undue credit. And pointless anyway. There are none so blind as those who will not see. That's the tragedy and the obscenity of the whole American Empire thing. Throw another steak on the bbq, grab a beer and applaud while your armed forces kill, maim, brutalise and destroy other people and cultures, in complete ignorance of the values and structures of those countries, absent any desire to become informed, lacking any humanity, secure and superior in the ridiculous belief that America, (and only America), 'has God on its side'.
Wake up and smell the BS, seo guru. Please.
Ireland has never invaded another country, they also don't have the blood of millions of unborn babies on their heads. Switzerland is pretty good too. There are other countries that are much better morally than ours. The problem is ..it's hard to leave your country no matter how bad it gets.
Writer, name those countries, and picking only one comment out of many speaks to again narrow mindedness. I believe I said we as all powers that have come and gone have committed acts of indecency and atrocity. Now to your question, those countries that allow freedom of expression are modeled after our form of government are they not?
Brie, do your homework, the Irish do indeed have a history of such acts and invasions, both as part of the United Kingdom and alone. In fact in more modern times how many did the IRA kill, innocents that is?
Switzerland, correct me if I am wrong but are they not forged from the Viking history. And we are talking about immoral and indecent acts. How many of the people executed in World War Two were the Swiss complicit in by hiding assets, refusing to give back assets, or by being a launching point for attacks because they chose to remain neutral. Guys you have to read your history. Not just the last 100 years.
You are really grasping at straws SEO GURU. Sure you have individuals that do terrible things in every country. And to throw Ireland in with the United Kingdom is utterly ridiculous as they hate the British ruling class. The number of people that the IRA killed is minuscule compared to the millions of innocent Indians, Babies, Black Slaves, Iraqis, and Afghans killed by the United States.
I can give an answer for the IRA question. Of course it depends whether you agree as to the validity of it.
The IRA didn't kill that many, not when compared to Shock and Awe. Incidentally, I think for a long period America supported the IRA as did Libya. Strange bedfellows.
The IRA would argue, incorrectly in my opinion, that their targets were valid. Not all of them were by any means.
The interesting thing from my 'neutral' point of view is the definition of terrorist. The IRA were fighting for a free united Ireland against the British occupiers. They would regard themselves as freedom fighters.
They were fighting the British Army, so 'we', if we must call ourself British, determined they were terrorists.
Both sides visited atrocities on each other. Britain dispensed with normal justice in order to defeat the 'terrorists'. They weren't defeated.
In the end the thing that worked and has kept a kind of peace going was doing that which we should all do more of... talking.
War is failure. It is a failure of our politicians to do that which they are paid for. To keep the peace and to argue our case.
One small thing re Iraq and Afghanistan. America has shown how weak it is, not how strong. It has, by visiting death and destruction on innocent people, created enough hatred to last a millenium.
I agree Mark. I'll go further than that to say we have a completely criminal government and the people who refuse to acknowledged this and fight against it are most to blame in my opinion. The American Government is using the Nazi playbook to further it's criminal plans.
Homeland Security
Concentration Camps
Demonizing Minorities
Propaganda News
Science Experiments on it's own citizens
Brown Shirt Goon Squads called the TSA
See Something Say Something to encourage snitches
Using fear of outside threats to wage war against countries that have never attacked us.
Hence my conclusion: Zionist=Nazi.
Who really controls America?
Same shirt, different color.
everyone knows the saying "two wrongs dont make a right"...so my question is this...just because "everyone at some point in their history" committed brutality, callous disregard for life and so on...do that mean it is ok for us to continue such acts? people used to keep slaves, does that mean we can still keep them? will there never be a time when man can rise above "his nature" and do the right thing? the answer is no. and mostly because man (i am talking about those in power, not so much the individual) has no desire to. they like the way they gain power...i used to think america was great because it always went to the aid of weaker countries...but the more i learned and continue to learn i realize america never did anything for free, what they did always came with a price, whether that price be material or human lives, it didnt matter, america was willing to pay it. and that is what makes america bad. i dont care if every country on earth behaved in such a manner...america claims to be the moral capital of the world, having GOD on its side...if they want to claim such a thing then they should at least attempt to live up to it. as for GOD, HE has turned HIS back on america.
Thanks, Timgas70. I wanted to say that but could not do it without anger.
What idiot would call a Zionist a Nazi. The Nazi's killed 6 million Jews, stole their assets which they then used to finance 30% of their war effort that killed more than 60 million people worldwide. It is obvious some commenting here are just anti-american. and this is your choice.
And here again if you read my comments and not scan for argue points I never once said I support the actions (some or all) I simply point out that is what has happened since the beginning of time. Would I prefer a Utopia, where all was wonderful in the world, of course. Tell me where that is.
You know people no one is born with discrimination or racism built into their DNA. We learn it and usually we learn it at home, and as long as people keep teaching it to their children, all these complaints and concerns will continue.
Instead of complaining about them raise children that will change them.
So while on a rant let me give you an example of why this continues generation after generation.
And since some of you seem to be racist I will pick an area of the world to get your blood boiling.
Imagine a 9 year old boy sitting at a cafe in Israel and a homicide bomber detonates a bomb there. His family is killed. He from that day will grow up to hate those responsible or perceived to be responsible.
Now let's say Israel retaliates and drops bombs in an area where rockets are coming from and a 9 year old boy watches his family die. He too will hate forever.
In both cases, they will grow, teach the hatred and continue the cycle. TELL ME HOW THIS SOLVES ALL THE THINGS YOU ARE ALL COMPLAINING ABOUT
USS Liberty
Jonathan Pollard
Mavi Mamri
Operation Cast Lead
9/11
Settlements
Mossad
That's the idiot's reasoning. Same MO, same evil intent. Not good enough? Oh well.
“Writer, name those countries.”
seo guru, if you’re so unaware that you need a foreigner to tell you, that in itself is as clear a message as I need to confirm my assertion about the self-absorbed attitude of Americans like yourself.
The list is actually very long, but I’ll name just one, New Zealand, where I was born and raised. There are many reasons why New Zealand could claim moral superiority over the US. Such as the 1840 Treaty of Waitangi, which ended the Maori Wars, and enshrined the rights to Governmental participation in perpetuity of the indigenous Maori tribes. Or more recently, the 1984 declaration of NZ as a nuclear-free zone, and the banning of nuclear powered and nuclear armed (read US naval) ships from its domestic waters. The punitive response of the US to NZ asserting its sovereign rights is also a matter of public record, in the US as well as in NZ. But I’m you’ve never bothered being aware of this ‘small stuff’...FYI, NZ has always been, and remains allied to the US, which is probably handy because the country doesn’t have enough armament to withstand a ‘Pre-Emptive Strike’ should one of your future leaders feel the need to “make an example of ‘these bastards who think they can tell *us* to stay outta their affairs.”
I know you won’t be bothering to further your education, seo guru, I can tell you already know all you need to know to *know* you’re right. In fact, I can hear you now, saying “There’s hundreds of millions of Americans and (after you check your Wikipedia) only 4 million New Zealanders, so who matters most?. Same tired response, same superior tone. Same mistaken belief that ‘Might is right’.
Nevertheless, in the context of this article, it’s been instructive to me to watch your rapid degeneration from the voice of reason to the voice of self-delusion and denial, in the face of reasoned comments and input from rational thinkers providing factual rebuttal to your claims, many of whom, I’m thrilled and reassured to see, are your fellow Americans.
The article set out to answer the question, ‘How America Lost The Moral Argument’. In concert with the many intelligent comments, I believe it does that.
The bonus for me, is that your responses and attitudes, shared as they are by a majority of your fellow citizens (assuming democracy’s still working where you live) also provide a clear answer to the question of “WHY America Lost The Moral Argument.”
Thankyou, and good night.
Okay I know nothing of New Zealand, I admit it. But again is it not modeled after our from of government. Is it not a democracy. And not to be rude but didn't we lose tens of thousands of American Soldiers defending your country from Japanese invasion. And who protects you now from invasion or terrorism. Australia I believe correct and us right.
It is very easy to be moral when you are not faced with those decisions. I wonder if we had decided it was immoral to fight the Japanese to save your nation what you would be saying right now, or perhaps you wouldn't be because you would be a colony of Imperial Japan.
It is so easy to rail on a country that has much more to protect including you.
well, seo guru...i am born and raised an american. i believe the usa to be corrupt and things done are not for the benefit of the people but the rulers of this country. a true leader does what is best for the people they lead...not what is most likely to gain them money and power. lying to us and leading us into un necessary wars is not looking out for us. the us govt is well known for breaking its treaties with the native americans when they discovered the land where the lakota roamed had gold. they took their sacred Black Hills away from them. to this day if the lakota wish to spend a day in the Hills at one of the lakes, they must pay to do so. that is galling. to blindly defend a country or even an indivdual person that is wrong makes you as wrong as who you defend.
I am not defending anyone, can you people even read, boy what a waste of time today. count me out
I am appalled at how the American Indian was treated, did you even read my comments about the Mayans, the Incas, the native americans who only took what they need from the land and left it how they found it. For goodness sake, what do you folks scan these comments and look for things to argue about. I simply stated facts and gave no defense of the actions and in fact clearly stated they were wrong and even gave a solution, start teaching your children not to hate
democracy isn't working here in the US. elections are bought. i'm afraid obama will be the last grass roots campaign to take hold. ever since the supreme court's citizen's united decision, where now corprations can spend unlimited amounts on campaigns, things are only getting worse.
Obama..the last grass roots campaign!!!! Wow, now that is delusion. Obama is bought and paid for by Goldman Sachs!
how about some evidence of that. obama was elected by thousands of $20 canpaign contributions.
it's statements like that that discourage folks from voting at all.
i read what you wrote seo...but i cant imagine someone even bringing up what you did in your first comment unless it was your desire to defend america against those who dislike america. seems to me i would have simply kept quiet. saying we should love america despite its actions is the same as defending it in my book.
Every person in Obama's cabinet is from Goldman Sachs or the Federal Reserve. They only let you think you voted for him.
And, who do Goldman Sachs and the Federal Reserve represent?
And just as a little aside....Goldman Sachs has switched allegiance. They now favor Romney....5 to 1.
As an American, it is easy to react to this hub with anger. But the truth is, your facts are not wrong. These things have happened. What is easy to forget is the context in which they happened.
No, America has not always made the best choices in a perfect world. What they (we) have done many times is made the best choice from a selection of options that were all objectionable. We often backed a least objectionable leader who later became the most objectionable one. We sometimes had to chose the lesser of a field of evils to protect our interests, and there is not a country on the planet whose first priority is not to protect their own interests. For every story of a hero you can find a story of a villan. There is no arguing with that fact.
"lovemychris" You should know by now that it doesn't matter who is president, the own both the Republican party and the Democratic party. The only person running who is not owned is Ron Paul and I will be shocked if he wins because they will kill him before letting go of that power.
But who is "they"? That is the main issue that needs to be dealt with and the one no one will touch.
Who is the federal reserve? Who is Goldman sachs?
Who runs America?
"Ron Paul has promised to dismantle the US government and allow the Oligarchs to rule the country without regulation. I don't see any improvement in that."
Made to order for the corporate world.
Timothy Geitner, Hank Paulson, Ben Bernaki are three that I can name off the top of my head. Ron Paul has promised to abide by the Constitution ..something that isn't being done now! He has promised to end illegal immoral wars, to abolish the IRS and other wasteful Federal agencies and to restore sound fiscal policy.
"Ron Paul reminds me of Ronald Reagan. Their plan is to pracically eliminate government and allow the private sector to run things - which results in a tyranny of the corporations and Oligarchs. One of the chief purposes of government should be to ensure that the rights of the common people are not trampled by the wealthy and the corporations."
I want Universal Rights, not States rights.
All people are created equal, not according to who runs the state you live in.
Long Live United States.
"What idiot would call a Zionist a Nazi"
"Palestine!
Sacrificed – just like Gesu;
INJUSTICE: WRIT LARGE!
Slaughtered – by the same Evil."
Amen.
Umm OUR RIGHTS ARE BEING TRAMPLED NOW! It's called the Patriot Act, Homeland Security, TSA and now NDAA!
I get so sick of the Constitutional nonsense. We designed it to be a living document, knowing that it would have to change with the times. Our courts are given the power to interpret law and the Constitution because, unlike the Right Wing blow hards who complain about it, our founders were smart enough to know that everything is always subject to interpretation and nuance.
I'm not happy about a lot of things, but the anarchy of Libertarians and their kissing cousins in the GOP will bring us nothing but more misery.
We don't have a cultural divide in this country - we have an intelligence divide!
I'll ignore the politics and answer Kathleen as best I can. "Choosing the least bad option". I agree with that premise.
My view is that America chose the worst option when they invaded Iraq against worldwide public opinion. Everyone, apart from Bush and Blair, could see that Iraq posed no threat to the US and was not involved in 9/11.
There was no sane reason ever presented for this action. This action, in my opinion, did more than anything to lose any claim on the moral high ground.
If I had been in charge of the US after 9/11 I would have built on the new world sympathy for America and tried talking instead of war mongering. The most powerful economic country in the world should not have to resort to pointless violence which has increased, not decreased, the enemies America faces.
Why is the moral high ground, or at least a semblance of it, important? So that when the US talks about North Korea or Iran, people might listen, rather than laugh bitterly and sarcastically. Otherwise it is seen as just another tissue of lies, as Iraq was.
I could not agree more. Wish someone with your point of view had been in charge 10 years ago.
Came across this yesterday...she is also searching for who "they" are!
"Catherine Austin Fitts: I think Wall Street is the pit bull, not the master. The $64,000 question is, of course, who is really in charge and why are they behaving this way?
I have had the opportunity to operate at high levels in Washington and Wall Street and have never met a person who did not function as if they were a prisoner of the system. Often, that "system" did not permit them to function on a lawful basis. This implies highly centralized governance if this many people are functioning in an insecure, limited or unlawful way.
The people who manage our financial system are also operating with significant double binds. This is what I try to describe with my red button story:
"In the summer of 2000, I asked a group of 100 people at a conference of spiritually committed people who would push a red button if it would immediately stop all narcotics trafficking in their neighborhood, city, state and country. Out of 100 people, 99 said they would not push such red button. When surveyed, they said they did not want their mutual funds to go down if the U.S. financial system suddenly stopped attracting an estimated $500 billion - $1 trillion a year in global money laundering. They did not want their government checks jeopardized or their taxes raised because of resulting problems financing the federal government deficit."
So it is not appropriate to assume that the corruption is just at the top. Indeed, most citizens in the first world have been the economic beneficiary of what James Turk calls "the central banking-warfare model."
At the same time, we have all been limited by suppression or control of knowledge and technology that could significantly improve global living standards. The spiritual, environmental and cultural costs of this model are enormous.
What my experience helped me to understand is that we are governed by a group of people who have the power to kill, and otherwise break the law, with impunity.
This power appears to come in part from the ability to use deeply invasive digital systems to gather intelligence, transact and monitor as well as from invisible weaponry, including satellites and weaponry controlled or delivered from space.
As Western countries move investment into the emerging markets, their satellites and military move to police this global investment. Investors do not invest where they cannot enforce. So in a sense, financial globalization is pressuring the United States to become a global military empire."
hooo boy......
I would like to point out that New Zealand is a democracy and fought in both the first and second world wars alognside the british and Americans. Also The US's history in international policy is horrendous (it would take too long to list all the times the US has crushed popular movements repressed democratic forces or denied the right to self determination) so yes the US lost the moral high ground somewhere between korea and vietnam and just went downhill from there.
where to start, well, how about with the author...
The article...
well written Mark. Easy read, and factually and shamefully correct. But would considering any of America's more "enlightened and charitable" actions throughout its history alter the perspective that it is n "bad" nation? (I won't bother with mentioning any because the vitriol displayed in most of the comments indicates it just would not be worth the effort - if someone is predisposed to believing there aren't any, it would not make any difference anyway)
As for whether or not America is "great," wouldn't that be a comparative judgement - as in great compared to what? And in comparisons, shouldn't they be relative - as in apples to apples? Is comparing America's historical issues and decisions to New Zealand's a balanced comparison?
So, when compared to similar national actions, wouldn't it be more realistic to base your judgements on comparing it to other large populous or semi-super, or super power nations; like, the USSR, or China, or the UK, or India, or the Arab kingdom? Wouldn't it seem like those populous and powerful nations are more likely to have had to make decisions and encountered situations similar to America's than say, New Zealand, or Switzerland?
If so, how does our list of shameful decisions rank in comparison? Or our list of "good" decisions? Of the nations mentioned - are we still the shameful worst?
No, this is not a "two wrongs...etc" twist of logic. It is realism. We do not live in a "kum bah yah" world, so realizing that "kum bah yah" decisions aren't always possible is only realistic.
So, even admitting the shameful actions in our past, and present, and probably future, I still think that comparatively speaking, America is a great nation. And I am damn glad to be here.
I usually try to stay away from group labels, because they almost always say more about the person using them, that the group they are applied to - but here... America haters certainly does seem an appropriate appellation to several commenters. To them I would say your list of negatives is probably correct, but do you dare compose a similar list of positives? Probably not, from the perspective of the comments there doesn't seem to be any.
and the Constitution as a living document? Isn't that an opinion, or is it stated somewhere in the document? Alas, just because opinions are available to all, it doesn't mean they are all valid, or that some should even bother forming one.
Evidently, Idiocy and self-righteousness aren't confined to just one side of the aisle. And hate really is a destructive thing to hold on to, it's more corrosive than acid.
The mention that "only in America" could this kind of public exchange be free of threat was ridiculed as nonsense, but is it? Comparatively speaking that is...
GA
Excellent comment GA, and I have no problems with it. I could find equal problems with most other countries in the world, especially the larger more colonially minded types.
I was not comparing America with them. My piece was written with sadness through disappointment, because I want to love the UK (my country) and America too (our cousin).
I want our democracies to be the right way, the free way, to be something worth fighting for and believing in.
Of course my article was not balanced with the good points, because that was not the intention. I just wanted to have my say on a particular angle.
I think that it is right to criticise, in order to make sure that 'they', the governments, are picked up on where they fail. In my opinion, they congratulate themselves enough.
And sometimes, I just get angry.
One further thing. I try to keep politics out of my angle. I am not interested in self serving hypocrites, from either side.
I could have written about the UK but there is only one superpower, we just do what we're told.
GA Anderson and Mark Ewbie, I have just read both of your last comments and I hear sincerity, calmness, integrity and a heart rending honesty in what you both say. If the world could chat so calmly, honestly and sincerely without vicious slurs, but as you have have done, it would be a far better place.
Thank you both, you have made my evening just a little bit more pleasant.
@Mark - Damn it, don't be so sensible! :) I understood the points of your article, and the logic behind its contents.
My response was primarily directed to the comments section content.
I enjoy political discussions, mainly because I think almost all politicians are scoundrels - which gives me twice the opportunity to jump on a topic. I am an equal opportunity berater. But there have also been too many instances in our history were, given the decisions they had to make would affect the nations survival, I would not have wanted to be in their shoes.
Thanks for the discussion
GA
Just to let you know, anderson has made slurs about liberals, and when I called him on it, he deleted me from his comments section.
This is not intended as an insult, but to point out the truth.
He is a liberal-basher in front of his right-wing friends.
Don't act like a fair and balanced person.
@Twilight Lawns - thanks for the compliment, but don't be fooled by what appears to be a favorable first impression - I'm actually an irrational hate-monger masquerading as a sensible guy to lull you into my trap. :)
Just look at lovemychris - she'll tell you LOL
@lovemychris - as my teenage daughter would say - OMG!
I don't remember you ever visiting my articles - so I doubt if I deleted your comments. I welcome all input, the silly and the wise. You can decide where yours fits.
But, I guess there is no need denying the truth of your other accusations though - a simple examination of my library will probably betray one of us.
GA
ps. now that I think about it, I do recall seeing you make a similar charge against another writer that you "apparently" disagreed with. Are you sure you don't have me confused with someone else? Confusion isn't a frequent problem for you is it?
You said you had a Democrat doctor and wanted to shove a broom up his hind-side. All of your right-wing friends were bashing Dems right along with you. I, as the only Dem, was deleted. I mentioned it on the feed....many of you delete my comments as a matter of course. Just as the righties always try and have me banned from the forums.
It's cowardly, and does not honor the 1st amendment, IMO.
@lovemychris - ahh... I remember now. I was right. I did not delete your comments, you have never visited my articles. What you are referring to was a comment I made on someone else's hub.
No, it's alright, don't apologize. We all make mistakes now and then. Even me. I remember once back in 78' when I thought I was wrong... but I was mistaken.
If you are going to try to repeat what I say, at least make the effort to get it close to the truth. I'm not going to search all the hubs to try to find a link to it, so I'll try to briefly recap the "real" conversation.
The story.
I had what's called a "walking" heart attack. Walked into ER and next thing I know, I'm in surgery for a heart stint operation to open a blocked artery.
The process cuts into a vein in the thigh and a heart catheter is used to thread up to the blocked heart artery and insert the stint.
Everything went fine and I was in the recovery room. I had a male nurse that my wife knew as an acquaintance of a friend - so we were all having a general good time talking and waiting to take out the "thingie" in my thigh that they used to hold the vein open for the catheter.
The deal is, when the "thingie" is removed, the nurse has to hold direct pressure on the incision for a full 20 minutes - to allow the vein to self-glue itself back together.
So for 20 minutes, this male nurse and I were "up-close" and personal. Unfortunately, we made the mistake of talking politics. That was a problem because he was a Democrat (I'll explain why that was a problem in a sec), and I'm a no-party guy. But more conservative than liberal.
Anyway, the conversation is getting pretty lively, and my wife, knowing my propensity to be frank, tried to tell us both to just stop.
She was saying silly stuff like; "Calm down, you just had a heart attack and heart surgery - this isn't the time to get excited." Did I listen? Nooooo.
So here's the rub, this guy wasn't capable of having a legitimate discussion! All he did was spout off with the typical Democrat/liberal "talking points" - no back up beyond the typical phrases. (come on, we all know about "talking points" they're the phrases you hear over and over no matter what channel you check. If you hear 4 or 5 people use the exact same phrase for a topic, you know it's a "talking point")
That would not have been a problem if he had an opinion to back them up, but he didn't. When his facts were challenged - he would just move on to another "talking point" seriously, there was no substance at all. Geez, you just should not get into those conversations if you aren't at least willing to offer a thought or two of your own.
So anyway, here's comes the part LOVEMYCHRIS was referring to...
after about 10 or 15 minutes of this, maybe it was the effects of the anesthesia, or maybe I was just tired, but I finally told him that if he couldn't offer any more than words somebody else thought up, maybe he should just concentrate on the incision pressure and I would just take a nap until he was done.
I thought he was going to choke. He called another nurse over to take his place, and... stalked out of the room like he had a broom up his butt!
Now does that sound like LOVEMYCHRIS'S version?
If she doubts my version - then let her do the searching for the old comment, where ever it is. A nickle says she won't :)
GA
Oh, OK...I made up the part about the broom up his hind-side? I don't think so. And I'm pretty sure it was your hub, because I made a point after that not to comment on your hubs, because I knew it was useless.
Your word against mine.
And it's quite hilarious to me how many "Independents" are so enamored of the Republican way of doing things!
Hey LoveMyChris? You know I'm on your side of the aisle, right?
I delete comments I don't like at my hubs too. I have the same low opinions of this guy as you do, but he can delete anything he doesn't like and so can I and so can Mark..
Pcunix, I think that to delete a comment because you don't like is a little childish. People have their opinions, and whether you agree with them or not, if you invite comments, then you must be prepared to accept the bad with the good, the dross with the gold.
If someone wants to post a lot of leftist or rightist claptrap on your hub, you owe it to others to see what has been written. Then those others can form an opinion.
Obviously if you think their remarks go too far, inasmuch as they may be libel or slander, then you are within your rights.
There is such a thing as State Censorship, which I feel you would find distasteful, but you are practising Individual Censorship which to me, being a former schoolteacher, smacks o0f the playground.
Or will you only accept comments on your site which tell you how wonderful you are?
The rough with the smooth, my friend.
Humbly yours,
Ian
Hi guys. I don't hang around the political forums so I don't know who is who or where they might be coming from. I am probably a lefty liberal with occasional veerings to the right depending on the issues, but I genuinely hate and despise politics. In my view they cloud the judgement of virtually everyone who takes part in them because you then become beholden to the party line.
Everyone who disagrees is automatically an idiot or on a wind up, and any attempt to discuss an issue from an unbiased point of view is impossible.
So I'm not making judgements on these comments because I don't have the time to be sucked into it.
I don't believe anyone, anywhere has ever changed their mind on the basis of forum arugments or flaming - good to rant, but as to solving anything, utterly pointless.
So I'm either a neutral, or stupid, or just rude.
@Lovemychris - Greetings again.
I generally have a problem coming right out and calling someone a liar, apparently that is not an issue for you.
Sure, you could say it's a case of "your word against mine" - I don't think it's important enough to argue about. But I do think it would be more factual to say "fact versus fiction"
And I'm pretty comfortable letting my articles and comments speak to which side of the description my "version" fits on.
But still, your comments are obviously sincere, and express opinions you feel passionate about - and that's a good thing. Of course it would be better to know what you are talking about too, but if you can't have it all, at least you have your passion.
@PCUnix - interesting that you know so much about me - I don't recall any significant interactions between us. But I have stumbled across your comments on other articles, and just as lovemychris, you too seem to be very passionate about your positions. Good for you.
as for the "deleting comments" issue - to each his own.
I find it much more enjoyable, and educational to have open forum discussions, but if you only feel comfortable and safe "preaching to the choir," then that's what you should do. At least that way alleviates any obstacles that facts might throw across your path to the soapbox.
Alas, I'm sure the pleasure is all yours
GA
Oh how sweet! Another man using the side way to tell me I'm stupid. Does HP grow them on trees?
And it is important to argue: man up.
MArk, I agree with you 100%. heck, i dont even know the difference between a lefty or a righty, tho i hear them often enough. as for deleting comments...everyone has a right to their opinion or view, so i never delete one. i would if it was full of foul language maybe, but otherwise i dont. i wish people could exchange views without finding it necessary to insult others simply because they disagree. apparently this is impossible for people to do though.
You could keep adding to the list you started above all day. Add Iraq, Iran, Panama all the way to the canal. The more I look at history the more I realize that you can not blame the kids of today for their falling out with society. Add the war on drugs, the FDA, Globalism, a phony two party system with no representation, the media. Our Country and the World is a mess of greed, lies and agendas. All of this would be fine if there was one shred of truth in any thing we stand for today.
America, Love it or leave it. Oh I forgot you can't. Quit crying about someting you can't change and get a life. Why don't you run for office, why don't you join the service, why don't you quit crying and stop trying to save the world. You should be happy that you were born in AMERICA ! You could have been born as a ungrateful sniveling coward on an island in the pacific.
Then who would you have to cry to?
Not sure who you are talking to cleaner3.
If it's me then can I point out that I am not American. I live in the UK. One of those 'foreigners' who America feels it has a right to crap on.
My point of writing the article above was to explain how at least some people view America's journey of the last ten years, sinking well below normal levels of civilised behaviour.
I can tell from your post that you are neither open minded enough or coherent enough to understand the significance of this. Hurling insults, and pissing on dead bodies is about as high minded as it would seem to get for many.
Why my view matters, is that it is a common view, a shared distaste for American behaviour across the world. It is a silent condemnation. The next time America needs support it may find that even it's friends are too embarassed and ashamed to help out.
A fading superpower will one day need some friends.
Mark, let me speak wih words that you can understand
First of all who gave you the right to speak for the world ?
And #2. Sometimes the people that crap on you ain't always trying to hurt you, and sometimes the people that clean the crap off of you ain't always trying to help you.
The significat part that you overlook is that this is war!
Support , you have the gall. AMERICA saved the U. K. in both World wars.
friends like your country, we don't need.
Having said that, When has your country ever saved us or anybody else.
If the shoe fits wear it, if it don't get some money and buy a different pair.
Thats called American Humor, but don't take it personal.
Thanks for the discussion.
In terms of support you needed the UK to provide a fig leaf for the illegal war in Iraq.
My right to speak is as an individual. The views I represent are shared widely across the world. They are not unique crackpot views, but those of fairly sane reasonably minded people.
You may still think of America as a superpower but it has shown nothing but weakness over the last ten years. It's global reach is diminishing.
As for war. Lol. War with who? The rest of the world, the Muslims, Islam, Afghanistan - who do you think you are at war with?
But hey, if you'd rather spend a trillion dollars that you borrowed from the Chinese on fighting wars than feeding your own starving people - that's a great thing to be fighting for.
Cleaner3, please save your vitriol for this country when you say that your country saved the UK in both World Wars. Look into your history books, if you have learned to read anything apart from bellicose red necked garbage and see how soon the United States rushed in to "save the UK" from the Nazis.
Did no one ever tell you that the US never actually declared war on Germany?
They only entered the war after Pearl Harbour.
And did no one else tell you that America loaned the UK money to continue the war, and that their greed almost crippled our country.
The great American Dollar sucked up most of our precious metal reserves, and your kind country grew even fatter on the proceeds.
Oh yes, they rushed in to help... or was it to help themselves on 7th December, 1941. Someone must have forgotten to tell them that the UK had declared war on the Axis Powers on 3rd September, 1939.
Illegal, Really.Illegal only is a word liberals use to slant the conversation.
I want to know when the WORLD told you all their views.
First you talk about hurling insults ,then you insinuate that I have crackpot views.And of course i'm sure that your insinuations of fairly sane,(HA,HA,HA)resonable minded people(this must be you, Im pretty sure).
Weak, Diminishing, Your country better look in the mirror. When the muslims that are slowly taking over your country, become the majority,you will then be writing about how your country used to be.
Thanks for the discussion, you reasonably minded, fairly sane person.
I don't need to say anything more for now cleaner3. My page is about America losing the claim to some moral high ground - of having right on its side.
Since I wrote this page the pissing video has appeared - which seems to say everything that needs saying about American values.
As a comment on America, pissing away trillions of dollars on pointless endless war, while not caring about the horrors it inflicts on other people, those soldiers made a most powerful statement.
Twilight, No one cares if war was declared. Sometimes you are at war, and you don't even know it.
Red Necked garbage,You don't even know nothing about me.
I am from the minority in America, who are about to become the majority.
I've read more books than years you have been alive, so I don't need some clown telling me how the world really is or what the truth is.
And if we hadn't "rushed in" you and your family would be speaking GERMAN right now.
Thats who we are, Capitalists
Thank you for being so resonable and sane in this discussion.
"I've read more books than years you have been alive"
Now that is very funny. You really have no idea who you are talking to. Possibly one of the most well read, educated and charming people on HubPages.
Whatever your political views are, and I accept they are different to mine, and Twilight's - I will assure you that Twilight is an absolute gentleman.
He is no clown.
Having said that I think it best, that without more insults, from either side, we accept that people are different and they hold different views.
I will allow you the satisfaction of admitting that mine are no more 'true' than yours and we can withdraw with an element of dignity.
Very graciously said Thank you for your insightful views on the world situation.P.S.I usually don't insult but that gentelman started the conversation with an insult.
Have a nice day.!
My dear Cleaner3, "Weak, Diminishing, Your country better look in the mirror. When the muslims that are slowly taking over your country, become the majority,you will then be writing about how your country used to be."
What is it that you trying to get across? I happen to be one of those Muslims to whom you are referring.
Are you worried that a religion that originated in the Middle East might be likely to be more reasonable than that to which you offer your allegiance? I am referring, of course, to your love of Capitalism? America? Insularity? Some out of control American soldiers who think it acceptable to urinate on the bodies of dead people?
Don't you realise that that action compounded the issue, and that very few people on this planet look on the act without repugnance?
Sir,Twilight.You sir take me out of context. in wanting a rational discussion we both started on the wrong foot.
That being said,Yes these soldiers, who did something dispicable, are very young men who were sent to another land by faceless generals. But you can't put all Americans into this category . the few muslims that crashed the planes into the towers don't represent every muslim, and my statement about your country is very true . I an a hispanic American whose parents migrated from Mexico and soon enough The hispanics in America will be the majority in America. Now maybe you don't have any allegiance to your country,which ever it is. I was born in America and I am a patriot for America, and I have great respect for any American or any person, who will put their life on the line for their country. The world would be a lot better off if we all just looked at ourselves as human beings.If aliens attacked our world do you think WE would then understand this simple concept or would we disparage them DAMN ALIENS ?
Thank you for this rational discussion, sir.
I find it ridiculous that people condemn those who tell the truth about our country. This is not an act of being unpatriotic or a stance in favour of being un-American. Its about taking the moral high ground in the best interest of all people and telling others we can do something about it. Do we really have to put globalism ahead of our own people and do low wages in America really improve our lives? Do we need to economically en-slave other nations to get what we want? Does it really make economic sense to ship our food a thousand miles and grow none near by. If the whole system failed tomorrow you would starve to death. Then their is just the truth and the obvious lies that justify nothing. Lets not protect our borders or control immigration. Lets instead remove your rights, leave the borders open, and spend billions of dollars on security. How do you explain the hundreds of terrorist groups that existed during the cold war and make the claim that we need this kind of effort to stop them. Every major decision that has been made for us is far from any justification in being the best answer or idea to the problem. These decisions stink to high hell when they are based on false information, special interest and secret agendas. The real American knows how to speak the truth, is not afraid to tell others enough is enough and empowers others to petition there government and force them to actually represent them.
Taking the moral high ground?
Like I told another hubber,I will ask you this question.Who is this mythical "we" that you talk about?
You ask questions that only you have answers for.Then "you" give imaginary answers.
"you should be in Washington, asking the politicians who make these decisions in "our" name why "THEY" put themselves ahead of our intrests.
I am a "real American" ( are you disparaging my ethnic heritage?)
You and I can't change the system but only through rational dialoge can "we" open people's minds to the truth.
Thank you for your views, and this rational discussion.
No by recognizing the horrible truth I realize that we do not need politics or religion in order to identify problems that effect us all. We do not have to pick topics based on any moral agendas at all and in fact should leave such topics alone. Still we need everyone to petition their government and boldly attempt to get it to recognize the people. I get tired of this idea that we can do nothing and that being American is to draw ridiculous comparisons to nonsense. We have yet to pick one topic that effects us all and unite on that topic and petition are government for change. The last petitions are moral arguments that always divide us and end in defeat. A fair and equal tax would be a good topic, campaign finance reform and a removal of the conflict of interest at all levels of our Government would be nice and I bet we could come up with many others that would improve our lives.
Well said, well written.
" But all sited here could be said of every nation going back to the beginning of time."
However, isn't American exceptionalism supposed to mean something? Aren't we supposedly, "better" than all those others?
"Given a choice I still prefer to live here as opposed to many other places on this earth. Those of you posting who don't perhaps you could share your countries past with the group. I am sure it is filled with nothing but love and peace."
Given the choice, and we all have that, I too prefer to live here because the opportunity to continually strive for a "more perfect union" is always a possibility. However to deny that the problems that we have in this country should be addressed, and instead, ignored because doing so amounts to "hate America" is completely disingenuous. How can you improve something if you don't admit that there's a need for improvement?? If your own child is doing something wrong, do you ignore it or do you correct it? Why would anybody think for a minute that a system of any kind is infallible and perfect and never needs improvement? If that were true, Microsoft would have had the perfect operating system on the first try.
adagio4639 If this hub has prompted nothing else, it has been the catalyst for some of the best writing I have seen on HubPages for a very long time. You contribution is up there with the others. Beautifully written my friend. I feel we in the UK can leave the English Language in very safe hands to you people over The Pond.
"But all [c]ited here could be said of every nation going back to the beginning of time."
"However, isn't American exceptionalism supposed to mean something? Aren't we supposedly, "better" than all those others?"
Well, that's sure what we were taught in school, wasn't it? As I have said before, I was shocked, disgusted and disheartened by our invasion of Iraq. In retrospect, knowing the lies that justified Vietnam, that also was a moment that destroyed any pride I had in America.
Yes, the world is full of crappy people - many much crappier. I get that. It doesn't change that WE are behaving badly and we should not be.
You sir, are arguing with your own statement.
American "exceptionaism" is a term invented by the left to try to reelect Obama.
Ask all the countrys that we helped out when they were in trouble.
A few always behave badly all over the world thats why you should not put "we" into the statement.
Quit disparaging America, just because you want to push your own views. on the past. Lets look to the future. The past is past.
![The War Against Terrorism: Why Does America Want a Repeat of 9-11? [57*-23]](http://s2.hubimg.com/u/5188129_50.jpg "The War Against Terrorism: Why Does America Want a Repeat of 9-11? [57*-23]")
Au fait Level 7 Commenter 4 months ago
Very well said.